T. BERRY’s INTERVIEW Part Two

Interviewed by Karen Bernstein

INTERVIEWER – Today is July 28th, 2022, and I am speaking with T. Berry, for the second part of a two-part oral history. This part is covering high school, and then into his career, later years, and up to present day, if you’d like.

But first, we’re going to start with some clarification of his family members, the names…. I don’t know if you can remember birth years. Maybe that’s not really that necessary; to the extent that you can. So, tell me your mother’s… well, wherever you want to start this. Do you want to start with your grandmother or aunt….

BERRY – No, I told their names. I don’t think I gave my mother’s and father’s name. My mother's name was Adella Owens Bonner and my father's name was James Berry.

INTERVIEWER – Do you have a sense of…. what do you feel your place in that school was like? Did you feel like an outcast? Did you feel very much a part of the popular scene? Paint us a picture of what high school was like; that high school experience was like for you.

BERRY – No, I didn't feel as an outcast. I was, I guess you can say popular in school. I was more into sports than anything else. In my senior year, I really didn't start thinking about college until probably the second semester of my senior year when some of the other students were trying to find a college. I always felt I was going to college, but I hadn't really put any effort into making that happen. I had to scramble that last semester and try to find an institution that would accept me.

INTERVIEWER – What inspired you to go to college or was it just always assumed that you would?

BERRY – It was really…. I had worked a lot of hard jobs, like in the cotton fields, outside work, and I knew I didn't want to work outside. So, I decided, well, maybe I'll become a teacher and coach. At that time, 1966, I didn't have a lot of Black role models that were in other professions, like lawyers and doctors and such. I loved sports and I loved history, so, it seemed to be the perfect marriage for me to become a high school teacher and coach.

INTERVIEWER – Was there a teacher; you talked about this a little bit when I went through that slide show with you. What was the name of the teacher who had a big influence on you? There was one particular teacher that you talked about.

BERRY – I don’t know. I got along with all my teachers in high school. Stop! I was still getting licks in high school, but... I don't know. Ms. Doris Johnson was probably my favorite teacher. She taught me several subjects: Spanish, choir, government. Ironically, I failed her choir class because I couldn't sing. When I tried to sing, kids would laugh at me. So, I refused to sing so she failed me. But she was also the choir director at church. At church, I was in the choir. But I was only in the choir to make the choir seem larger. She didn't want me to sing or anything. I just lip synced the songs, and I would rock my head like I was really singing, but I was just lip syncing. But she was probably my favorite teacher.

INTERVIEWER – It's interesting that you knew that you were going to become a teacher. Was that just because there were limited occupations that Black people could take on in that time period?

BERRY – I just didn't have a knowledge of a lot of other occupations, and occupations seemed limited. So, that's what I selected and it was something I loved doing. When you work, you want a job to seem like it's not really work.

INTERVIEWER – Right. Were there any career guidance people at Booker T. or how did that work?

BERRY – No, we didn't have counselors.

INTERVIEWER – Who did you go to? Was there somebody that you went to for advice about what college you should to go to?

BERRY – No one.

INTERVIEWER – You just figured it out on your own?

BERRY – Yeah, I figured it out on my own. I went to take the college entrance exam and did well on that. And I selected Huston–Tillotson in Austin because of its close proximity to Elgin. I didn't have a car, and I knew Austin. I knew how to maneuver through Austin. But it was a private institution…

INTERVIEWER – How did you get into town?

BERRY - I stayed in the dorm the first semester of my freshman year. And the second semester, I ran out of money and I moved back home. There was another student that attended Huston–Tillotson, Lucy Goins. I rode with her each to Austin. I never knew how I was going to get back home. I would stand on the corners and just look for somebody going to Elgin.

INTERVIEWER – And would there be enough people going to Elgin that you could make that work?

BERRY – Yeah, I made it work. A lot of times, Reverend Robinson, who was a pastor in Austin, but he lived in Elgin and his wife was Blanche Robinson, a teacher at Washington High; sometimes, he would bail me out. If I couldn't find a ride, I would go to his church if it was before seven o’clock because he usually stayed there until about seven and I would catch a ride with him. But normally, I would go on 12th Street or 11th Street and just look for someone going to Elgin.

INTERVIEWER – Wow! That’s pretty amazing. I can’t imagine doing that now because it’s just not the same amount of traffic going back and forth.

BERRY – It’s probably more traffic but they leave Austin from different avenues.

So, I went to Huston–Tillotson and I stayed there, but I didn't really like it. For one thing, everything to me, seemed to be geared around the fraternities and sororities and I didn't have money for that. Besides, by that time, I was into civil rights and stopping the war, and there just wasn't a lot of attention being paid to that on campus. So, I transferred to the University of Texas. Like I said, Huston–Tillotson was a private institution and the tuition was much higher than the tuition at UT. My last three and a half years, I worked eight hours a day, or night. I usually worked 3:00 to 11:00, but the last semester, I had to work 11:00 – 7:00.

INTERVIEWER – Where were you working?

BERRY – I started off in the kitchen at St. David's Hospital and I moved to Brackenridge Hospital. Actually, in the summers I would work two jobs. But at Brackenridge, I was a custodian, and then, I became orderly in the emergency room. Another reason why I transferred to UT is because most of the young people I was working with in the ER, the orderlies and the student nurses who rotated through there, were all attending UT. So, they encouraged me to make the transfer.

INTERVIEWER – I wonder why there wasn't much political organizing going on at Huston–Tillotson. Have you wondered why there wasn't much political organizing going on at Huston–Tillotson? Have you wondered about that?

BERRY – I think a lot of students didn't want to get thrown out of school. It was a lot of, I would say…. See this was early in the civil rights movement. I say early; inorning the middle 60s and early in the anti-war movement. And a lot of middle class and upper middle class Black students, especially in this area, hadn't really gotten on board yet. I mean, Huston–Tillotson was expensive, and a lot of those kids didn't want to feel like they were wasting their parents' money by getting kicked out.

INTERVIEWER – That makes sense. Tell me what UT was like for you in that time period because it's a much bigger school, too, it’s huge.

BERRY – Those were the best years of my life.

INTERVIEWER – Really?

BERRY – It didn't start off that way.

INTERVIEWER – Why did you say that?

Berry – Well, I was away from home my own. Not the first time, but the first extended period of time, on my own. I was making that transformation from boy to man. So, you make your own decisions. Plus, I just had a good time. I worked eight hours, but when I wasn't working, I was usually playing ball, and I just had a lot of good times with other students.

They let me in initially during the summer on a trial basis. They said if I made good grades, I could come back in the fall. So, I took two courses I knew I could pass. One was a PE class and another was about the Civil War. The teacher that taught the Civil War class was a real old guy. He looked like he had one foot in the grave. And whenever he would talk about the slaves, he would always say, "and the Nigras this" and "the Nigras that". Then everybody would turn around and look at me, because I was the only Black student in class; to see what I was going to do or say. But I really couldn't say anything because I was there on a trial basis. Even though I was in my militant stage, I really couldn't say anything. I just had to swallow it. So, it didn't start out that well, but no, I just loved going there.

INTERVIEWER – Was there a significant Black population on campus during that time?

Berry – They had about 30,000 students, and it was about 1% Black.

INTERVIEWER– Wow! I wonder how much has it changed now?

BERRY – A lot of times, I wouldn't see another Black student during the day. I only had a couple of classes with other Black students.

INTERVIEWER – How did that make you feel?

BERRY – I was fine with it. I mean, I'm adaptable.  

INTERVIEWER – Okay. So, you…. when you get through that first semester and you're fully in. Right?

BERRY – Yes.

INTERVIEWER – So then you really started to concentrate on what? What were you studying primarily? History?

BERRY – I majored in Physical Education and minored in social studies. I really had to study. Classes were challenging and I was working eight hours. I mean, especially that last year (I was working 11-7 at night). I was going to class in the morning, and then, I would go to student teach at Webb Junior High in the afternoon. Then, in the evening, I would have to student coach. I'd finish when coaches usually finish, about 6:00 or so. Then, I would have to go home and try to sleep, eat and study before 11:00 when it was time to go to work again.

INTERVIEWER – That’s exhausting.

BERRY - That last year, I didn't go out on one date. I just didn't have time. And where I lived, I roomed with a lady, an old lady. She rented me a room in the back of her house and there was no furniture. I had a bed, and everything I had to do in bed… study, eat, whatever. There was no bathtub. So, for two and a half years, I never took a bath. I just had to wash off in the sink.

INTERVIEWER – Wow! So, what were your parents and your kin's reaction, back in Elgin, to you being in UT, this prestigious school? What was their reaction?

BERRY – Oh, I suppose they were proud. We never talked about it much. I would come home occasionally. Normally on holidays I worked because you'd get time and a half if you worked on holidays. I didn't see my family a lot during that period.

INTERVIEWER – They must have missed you?

BERRY – Probably so. But, as I said, my mother had young kids. Everybody was just trying to get by.

INTERVIEWER – If you don’t mind me asking; I’m just curious, like, what did your family think about your politics? Because they were becoming, I wouldn’t say radicalized but you were definitely taking an interest in….

BERRY – We never talked about politics.

INTERVIEWER – No? Why was that?

BERRY – Well, like II said, I wasn’t home much. I didn’t see a lot of my…. after I went to college, I never saw a lot of my immediate family because, like I said, I didn't come home much. I never found the time. Once I left home, I never slept or spent a night there again.

INTERVIEWER – Oh really? I mean, it was a really pointed time. There was a lot going on, politically and in the world. I’m just kind of curious, from your vantage point…

BERRY – I just wasn’t there. I wasn’t there.

INTERVIEWER– You weren’t there. So, you have no idea. I’m just curious how the Black community in Elgin dealt with the politics of the time; the anti-war movement, the civil rights movement.

BERRY – I have no idea. I wasn’t there.

INTERVIEWER – Okay. So, what was the next big juncture in your life?

BERRY – Well, I finished in four years. During my junior year, I had a career change. I had gone to school to be a football coach. Despite the fact that I didn't like outside, that didn’t dawn on me. I was on that path until the spring of '68. The UIL had integrated. It was the first-year Black students were uniformly competing against white students in the UIL.

INTERVIEWER – Can you clarify what the UIL is?

BERRY – The University Interscholastic League. I’m sorry. That’s the governing body of high school sports in the state of Texas. Before integration, Black schools were governed by the Prairie View Interscholastic League. By, '67 – ‘68, the Prairie View Interscholastic League was no longer in existence, because schools in the state of Texas, all districts, were now integrated. That year, Houston Wheatley came to Austin to play in the state championship and I had never seen basketball played like that before. Sitting there, I just decided to make a career change, that day, because I wanted to be a part of that; what I was looking at.

INTERVIEWER – Wow. Yeah inspiring.

BERRY - I was also playing basketball on my off time. I played a lot of basketball the last couple of years in college, and the year afterwards.

I didn't get a job after I graduated that first year. Because of integration, it was tough getting selected as a coach by districts, especially if you were (Black) and didn't have any name recognition, or hadn't been an athlete in college. I sent my application to one district and they tore my picture up that was on it and mailed it back. Things like that.

INTERVIEWER – You’re kidding?

BERRY – No. I went to Hearne to apply, and the superintendent said he was going to hire me. He took me to a little cafe on Highway 6 and bought me a chicken fried steak dinner, and sit across from me and said, "Now, I'm going to hire you, boy, but I don't want you buying no new car."

INTERVIEWER – What does that mean?

BERRY – I couldn't buy a new car if he hired me.

INTERVIEWER – What? So, he's saying you're not going to be hired for long or…

BERRY – He just didn't want me to get uppity, to be uppity looking.

INTERVIEWER – Oh, now I see. Okay?

BERRY – Then, he took me to where I was going to live. I was going to room with this Black family that had four or five kids, and I was going to have a little room in the back of their house. So, I turned that job down. I didn't get a job the year after I graduated.

I stayed at UT, because I was having such a good time there. I moved into the dorm with the basketball players that first semester. I was sleeping on the floor in their dorm room.

The next semester, I moved to Waco, and stayed a block off campus there at Baylor. I pretended to be a student. I'd go to class and go and try to eat free in the cafeteria and play basketball all day. I did a little work, but I used their placement service to find this job in Galveston. I hated to leave Baylor because I was having a good time, but I needed to get on with life.

I went to Galveston and I was there thirteen years. I got married a couple years after I was there to a girl from Galveston named Brenda (Williams) Berry.

INTERVIEWER – How did you meet her?

BERRY – She worked at the school. The first school where I was hired. I started raising a family. I was there thirteen years coaching basketball. I didn't have to coach any football. It was really ideal and had a lot of success there. I got to coach in the state championship game. The same state championship game that I had been watching in Gregory Gym and had watched, year after year. So, I finally got to coach in the state championship game, myself.

INTERVIEWER – How did that feel?

BERRY - That was great. That was great. That was a great feeling. It would've been better if we had won. We lost in the final game by one point.

INTERVIEWER – One point! Wow. So, what was the reaction, since this is an Elgin oral history, can you tell us how people in Elgin felt about it? I mean they must have been pretty darn proud.

BERRY – About what?

INTERVIEWER– About all your successes. About your job in Galveston.

BERRY – Oh they never knew.

INTERVIEWER – They never knew?

BERRY – Some of my classmates, I’m sure they knew I was there. But in Elgin, it wasn’t like it was in the paper or anything.

INTERVIEWER – Yeah, that’s what I was wondering, if it was like “Local boy makes good.”

BERRY – No, not at all.

INTERVIEWER – None of that, okay. So, you end up back in Elgin.

BERRY – Mr. Franklin, who was a principal here, had been my high school coach. He and the athletic director, Lynn Stewart, wanted me to come back and take over the basketball program here. So, we moved back to Austin. My daughters didn't want to live in Elgin because there were more opportunities in Austin. One daughter wanted to be an actress. She wanted to take the kids acting class, so we moved to Austin.

INTERVIEWER – Can you tell me the names of your daughters?

BERRY – I have a daughter named Demita Huntley who now lives in Manor. She's retired. In fact, she retired before I did. Well, I worked so long, I worked forty-seven years. My other daughter lives in Missouri City. That's Danika Berry.

INTERVIEWER – Just those two?

BERRY – Yes.

INTERVIEWER – And when were they born? What years?

BERRY – The early 70s.

INTERVIEWER – How did it feel being a dad?

BERRY – Oh, it was fine. It was fine.

INTERVIEWER– Tell me what coming back to Elgin was like for you? What year did you come back to Elgin? Let's put a time print on it.

BERRY – 1985. The fall of ’85.

INTERVIEWER– How had things changed in Elgin? Do you remember?

Berry – Changes since I had left? Well, there'd been enormous changes because I left a segregated town and I came back to an integrated situation. I was working at the same school where I had graduated from. It was now a junior high. I worked there for a couple of years before I became the head coach at the high school. They had brought me there to be the head coach, but the head coach didn't leave. They said he was going to retire but he didn't. So, I had to wait a couple of years, but it was okay. So, I came back to same school and I was teaching in the same classroom where I had once taken classes.

INTERVIEWER – How did that feel?

BERRY – It didn't feel any different. By that time, I had been in education for thirteen years. So, it was just another year. I didn't really feel what you're thinking of until later when I became the Human Resources Director of the school district. I thought back to when I was a student. I was just an unknown student, and now, I'm one of the main administrators in the district. So, that was gratifying.

INTERVIEWER – I would imagine.

BERRY – But as far as teaching and coaching, I had been doing that for years.

INTERVIEWER – Right, right. Okay. One of the things I've always been so impressed by you is your use of drama and theater; a kind of a more theatrical approach to teaching history. How did you model that? Where did that come from? I mean you were making videos and slide shows….

BERRY – In my daily classroom, I planned lessons and I’m sure a lot of others do this also. When I did stop coaching, and one of the main reasons I stopped was because here in Elgin, I had to coach football, and I hated it. I was good at it, but I didn't like being outside. We kept getting head football coaches who were also the athletic directors. They kept doing things to hurt the basketball program. I had battled that all of my coaching career; football coaches hurting the basketball program. Each time we got one, they seemed to get younger and younger and I was getting older and older. Here were these young guys telling me what to do.

One thing that’s unfair about teaching is each year you get older but the kids stay 17,18. The new teachers stay twenty-two or twenty-three, but each year you get older and older. That was kind of unfair to me.

INTERVIEWER – But you were older and wiser, right?

BERRY – I was older and wiser, but I never did like that. Here are these young guys telling me what to do. So, I stopped coaching, and kind of looked at it this way. If you're coaching basketball, you maybe coach thirty games a year or a few more if you get into playoffs. But teaching, you teach, say a hundred and fifty days a year. To me, every day you taught school was just like playing a game. You had to prepare for it just like you prepare for the games, and you didn't get to do it thirty times, you got to do it one hundred and fifty times. Not only one hundred and fifty times, you may teach four or five class periods a day. I just looked at that and said, "What am I doing? I could be teaching and concentrating on teaching". I would prepare all different audio visuals, to interject into my lectures. You have to keep the students' attention.

INTERVIEWER – At the time, were other teachers doing that? I don’t see other teachers doing that now, much less….

BERRY – I don’t know what others are doing but I’m sure other teachers are doing something similar.

INTERVIEWER – No you’d be surprised. My son is in high school and he had the most boring….and you know I’m a history buff, too. As far as I could tell this guy was just going chapter by chapter in the textbook. He couldn’t have been more boring about it. Just like, “Okay, today we’re going to talk about Africa.” I mean not very interesting at all. But you had a way of…. like some of your students still remember you; still remember what you did.

BERRY – Well, teaching was very enjoyable to me. Like I said, it was something I loved doing. So, it wasn't work.

INTERVIEWER – You really liked to make videos and slideshows. Where did that come from? Was that something that you realized about yourself; a late in life kind of thing?

BERRY – No. I always did audio visual projects for my classes, and I would get students to do the same. But if you're speaking of these slideshows, it was something I started around 2010, when I was still employed by the school district; for them to show at the administration building. I had no prior experience in doing anything like that. In fact, when I first started, I didn't have a lot of pictures, and I was just throwing things against the wall. But as I continued, I got better at it.

INTERVIEWER – Amazing. I mean, you’re being very modest but you were way ahead of your time.

One thing that helped me…. what I always tried to incorporate into my classes was music. I've always loved music. When we didn't have a TV, just a radio, I listened to music growing up. It's always been a big part of my life.

INTERVIEWER – So, why do you think that helped with teaching; helped the kids learn? How would that help kids learn?

BERRY – It's not boring. Your job is to keep their attention. Without their attention, they're not going to learn. It was just like performing. Sometimes, I would pretend to be mad or throw something against the wall, but I wasn't really mad. It was just a performance. You have to be able to keep control of the class, keep the students' attention. If you can do that, then, it's a good possibility they're going to learn something.

INTERVIEWER – And do kids from Elgin or... they're not kids anymore. They're adults, full adults. But do they get back in touch with you anymore? Do you have kids who get back in touch?

BERRY – Oh, yeah. Most of the numbers in my phone are ex-students’.

INTERVIEWER – Really? Wow. That must be gratifying

BERRY – I have students here and in Galveston, believe it or not, it’ students that I used to coach that are over sixty-five, now.

INTERVIEWER – Wow. That’s not possible

BERRY –They're closing in on seventy. Some from my first class in '71, they're closing on seventy years old themselves.

INTERVIEWER – Well, let’s not think about that too much, right?

BERRY – So we’re all adults.

INTERVIEWER – Fully grown adults….so tell me, how long were you teaching in the Elgin schools?

BERRY – Well, I taught thirty years in Elgin. I retired after forty-three years but I was also working at Community Action, Inc. I was a district coordinator for adult classes, which we taught from ACC there in Elgin. I continued working there another four years, and then I retired, completely.

INTERVIEWER – Is that working with returning students?

BERRY –They were mainly adults.

INTERVIEWER – Well that’s what I mean….

BERRY – I was over a number of teachers and their classes. We were teaching GED, citizenship classes, and ESL classes.

INTERVIEWER – Why were you doing that work?

BERRY – Why?

INTERVIEWER - What was it about that work that was important for you?

BERRY – Well, I first started working because I had kids in college. Mainly, I did it for the money. But it was enjoyable. It was very gratifying, seeing your students’ become citizens or getting a GED. That was very gratifying.

INTERVIEWER – Anything else that you have to say about Elgin? When did you move to Houston, and why?

BERRY – I deeply appreciate my time there in Elgin. I met a lot of people and there are a lot of people I still keep in touch with. While working for the district, I was able to put my kids through school. So, I'll always be grateful to the Elgin school district. I retired in 2019 and moved to Missouri City to be close to my grandkids.

INTERVIEWER – Tell me about the experience of having grandchildren. Tell me who your grandchildren are.

BERRY – Well, I have one grandchild in Manor, Laura Huntley, who attends UT. I have younger grandkids here in Missouri City, Zoe Kouaho, Jalen Kouaho, and Justin Kouaho.

INTERVIEWER – And how is that experience of being a grandfather for you? Because you’re a pretty active grandfather.

BERRY – I see them virtually every day, and I'm able to help my daughter with them. When I was coaching, I didn't have the same contact with my kids while they were growing up because I was away so much at the time. But now I'm retired, I have a lot of free time to spend with them.

INTERVIEWER – That must be nice?

BERRY – Yes, it is.

INTERVIEWER - What sort of things do you miss about Elgin, or not so much miss?

BERRY – I miss my friends and I miss Central Texas because I spent most of my life there. I always thought the Austin area was like God's country. But I also lived down in this area for thirteen years. Like l said, I'm adaptable, wherever I go, I can adjust to it.

INTERVIEWER – And you don't like being outside, so it's probably easier to remain inside in Missouri City, right?

BERRY – Oh yeah. The pandemic didn't bother me in that respect.

INTERVIEWER – I was talking to Emma Mackey the other day who sends her best, and she said that the two of you are cousins. Like you were related by….

BERRY – Maybe she meant “Kissing cousins”? I don’t know. What did she say?

INTERVIEWER – I was telling her what you told me about picking cotton. Those summers, picking cotton, and you just have adversity towards going outside as a result. She laughed and said, "Well, you know, picking cotton was hard and hot, but it was the main social scene". She said she would go in the morning. She said she didn’t know how much cotton she picked, but it was the way that everybody kind of got together and saw each other.

BERRY – Yeah. Well, she had a different perspective than I did.

INTERVIEWER – She also said that it was grueling. She said, “like trying to find shade in the midst of all that.”

BERRY – There wasn't a lot of girls in our cotton field. No. There'd be a couple every now and then, but no. I didn't go there to socialize.

INTERVIEWER – So now, you're at a point in your life where you get to choose what it is that you want to do. You've been doing a lot of writing. What do you see as part of your future, and how does that relate to Elgin, if at all?

BERRY – Oh, how does it relate to Elgin? Well, I still try to record the history of Elgin. Whatever I do during the day, whatever I'm working on, I'm doing it with the thought in mind that I'm trying to leave something for the people of the future. So, they'll have a deeper understanding and appreciation of how we lived at this present time; how this generation lived. There's a lot that you can use to study about the past so I just want to be a part of that.

INTERVIEWER– Good. Is there anything else you can think of that you want to say?

BERRY – No… I also want to applaud the individuals there in Elgin who have been doing such a wonderful job with this Sesquicentennial celebration. I've never heard of a city that's had so many events and for such an extended period of celebration. It's something that Elgin should be proud of because every town doesn't do it like Elgin is doing it.

INTERVIEWER – Yeah, for sure. It’s a lot of energy. Gosh knows. All right man.